V-CAP mid range sound?

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V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby johnnyboy » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:44 pm

Eddie, I have a question about V-CAP caps. You said on this forum “Something else to consider if the V-Cap TFTF Teflon film/tin foil cap, which is almost as smooth as Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil, with a unique "creaminess" once burned in (which requires around 500 hours). They have utterly incredible microdetail, focus, and speed, but lack the lovely midrange richness inherit to paper in oil caps. They are neutral and uncolored; some would use the term "accurate."”

I’ve switched out the coupling caps on the Zen Select from Wima to Musicap and now to V-CAP. I’ve burned in about 50 hours on the V-CAP and it is settling pretty nice. Things are very clean and clear, fast and accurate, and especially neutral and uncoloured as you said. In fact your description above is on-par with my experience so far. I love the V-CAP. I think they are wonderful.

However, the issue that I have is the “lack the lovely midrange richness inherit to paper in oil caps”. I do not like the mid range on this V-CAP so far. They sound too neutral to me. I think I like more warm mid range sound (more euphonic tube sound). I know you don’t like Auricap/Musicap sound, but I had more warm rich sounding mids with Musicap (1000 hours on it) than with V-CAP (50 hours on it). Granted V-CAP does everything else much better (speed, clarity, focus, details and etc). Would more burn in hours on V-CAP give warmer midrange or that is not the strength of this cap? Should I look into the Mundorf Gold/Silver?
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby Eddie Vaughn » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:08 pm

Howdy johnnyboy,

The midrange tone of the V-Caps will greatly improve as time goes by, and will eventually lose its sterility and exceed that of an Auricap or Musicap. I know it's probably hard to believe right now, but the V-Cap will also be smoother than Auricap or Musicap once burned in. However, you can expect about 100 hours of pure misery before then, and another couple hundred hours ranging from mediocre to great to mindblowing, and then back and forth again somewhat, before they finally settle down and play nice for good.

But, they'll never have the absolute harmonic richness (some would say harmonic correctness) and magic midrange tone of paper in oil caps, especially those saying "Mundorf" on the side. Nevertheless, what the V-Cap TFTFs do right, they do better than anything else can, no doubt about that. But as I mentioned, their midrange tonality will also improve 100% from what it is now, so just be patient with them.

Eddie :D
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby johnnyboy » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:55 pm

Thanks for that note. I will be patiently wait for the breakin. I trust you ears, since all the advice you gave me directly and indirectly about all sort of tube parts and design considerations all seems to be right in line with my experiences.
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby Robert » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:43 pm

Where do the Russian FT3 Teflon caps fit in?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... NA:US:1123
Are they a good buy for the price, just plain cheap, or have you ever tried them?
Robert :)
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby Eddie Vaughn » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:43 pm

Robert wrote:Where do the Russian FT3 Teflon caps fit in?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... NA:US:1123
Are they a good buy for the price, just plain cheap, or have you ever tried them?
Robert :)


Howdy Robert,

I've got a big handful of those exact same Russkies that somebody gave me as a gift, but I haven't gotten to try them yet. I can tell you that the smaller, axial leaded Russian Teflon caps are mighty, mighty fine stuff for such little coin. But, do note that these Russian Teflons have aluminum plates, not tin plates like V-Cap TFTF and RelCap TFT Exotica, which IMO are better and indeed should be considering their insane price tags.

I'm convinced that tin is superior to aluminum in signal capacitors, because even the cheapie Solen tin foil/polypropylene film caps sound better than their aluminum-metallized polypropylenes, and also better (to my ears, anyway) than any aluminum foil/polypropylene film cap I've ever tried. Eight of the top 10 best signal caps I've heard are copper, tin, or silver, with aluminum caps bringing up the rear at numbers 9 and 10.

Eddie :D
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby johnnyboy » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:09 am

speaking of "cheap" caps, how would you rate these? Russian PIO capacitors from eBay, GE caps from Madisound, and Solen Fast caps. I've read that while GE and Solen Fast are not your favorite, they were good enough for econo-build amps. Are the GE caps as good as Solens? Or just different signature? What about the russian PIO caps?
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby SJC » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:03 am

Hi John
These FT3's are excellent and IMO outperform both mundorf silver and silver/gold in oil. I installed a pair as coupling caps about 4 weeks ago in my Eddie Vaughn 2A3. These replaced mundorf silver/golds and the improvements were not subtle, especially in the mid range. Having been impressed I ordered another 4 from KW Tubes ( excellent ebay supplier ) and fitted these into my Njoe Tjoeb CD player this weekend just gone. These replaced mundorf silver in oil caps and again a big improvement - tighter leaner bass, more open midrange, but not bright or clinical, just clear. I haven't heard/used the VT caps as they are not common over here but it sounds as though the FT3's will fall somewhere in-between the mundorfs and Vcaps, but probably closer to the vcaps. The only downside to the FT3's is the size - about 4 times the size of the equivalent mundorf cap or twice the size of audionote coppers. But, for the performance I would say buy them while you can and fit them in all of your projects, both cheap and expensive.
Cheers
Steve
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby Eddie Vaughn » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:14 am

Cool. 8) Thanks for the review, Steve! I MUST try those things very soon. The guy who sent them had removed the steel cans from them and wrapped them in tape, which he said further improves them. Wow. Those must be some caps. I know he was sure raving about them.

Eddie :D
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby dweekie » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:47 pm

Hey Eddie, I don't know what values you use, but let me know if you want me to send you a pair of unmodified .1uf or .47 FT3 caps to compare, no charge of course. I can't remember how the FT3 and FT72 differ; I think the FT72 is sealed in steel cans while the FT3 is aluminum and unsealed (has holes in it actually), but I'm not completely sure about that since I only have FT3 caps in my possession. I ripped a couple apart to see what they were made of since they were so cheap and easy to tear apart. It was pretty fun, but now I am unsure what the best way to attach the internal foil to some wire is ](*,) I think the original post was steel, so I cut that out. It still works okay when I wrap wire around the foil extrusions though \:D/ I haven't made any direct comparisons with a stock cap.
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby johnnyboy » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:21 pm

According to this review republished by V-CAP (from a chinese hi-fi magazine), the russian teflon caps were class E.

Class F (No Class ) - xicon, Solen PPE/SM, Jupiter BeesWax
Class E - Rusian teflon caps, North Creek Music/Crescendo
Class D - Mundorf/Supreme, Supreme/Gold/Silver, AuriCap and Musicap
Class C - Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil, Jensen PIO Copper
Class B - REL/Exotica TFT
Class A - V-CAP TFTF and Audio Note Silver

http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

They said that the "exceptionally well built Russian Teflon capacitor could receive a “B-” if not for the following shortcomings: 1. It is somewhat mechanical sounding... 2. The bass lacks weight and impact somewhat..."

I would be interested in hearing the Russian Teflon caps. I tried out te Russian PIO caps and they were decent sound, but I would say they are not anywhere close to V-CAP in performance.
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby dweekie » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:02 pm

I wonder which teflon cap they tested, ft3 or k72, and also, I wonder if removing the casing (and steel pin) helps out the shortcomings the reviewer stated.

I was looking up information on the new AuraT teflon cap, and so far I found only 1 person that posted information on it. He seemed to prefer it to the V-cap, although he didn't directly make a comparison. The AuraT seems to carry quite a high price tag.

One interesting post, although I don't know the accuracy of it, is a list of construction for a few caps.

VCap teflon -Teflon Film-Tin Foil
Relcap teflon - Teflon Film-Aluminum Foil
Sonicap Platinum - Teflon Film -Polypropylene "Hybrid"
SCR teflon - Solid Cast Teflon (no metal)
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby proud_indian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:36 pm

Hi Johnnyboy,

I have the V caps on my amp and ZB. The TFTF in the amp and the OIMP's in the ZB. Very smooth indeed. It took a real long time to burn in as I has staggered the installation, but they now sound great!!

shreekant :D
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby Eddie Vaughn » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:50 am

Hi Shreekant! I was just thinking about you yesterday. I haven't spoken with you in quite a while, and was wondering how you were doing. :D

dweekie wrote:One interesting post, although I don't know the accuracy of it, is a list of construction for a few caps.

VCap teflon -Teflon Film-Tin Foil
Relcap teflon - Teflon Film-Aluminum Foil
Sonicap Platinum - Teflon Film -Polypropylene "Hybrid"
SCR teflon - Solid Cast Teflon (no metal)


The RelCap/AudioCap TFT Exotica is Teflon film/tin foil, and so is Solen/SCR. Just yesterday, I spoke with the guy at Sonic Craft about the Sonicap Platinum, and he said it was a Teflon film cap very similar to the VH Audio V-Cap TFTF. I'm not saying it couldn't be a mixed dielectric design, it's just that he made no mention of polypropylene, and said it was very similar to the V-Cap.

Eddie :D
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby dweekie » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:24 am

Eddie Vaughn wrote:Hi Shreekant! I was just thinking about you yesterday. I haven't spoken with you in quite a while, and was wondering how you were doing. :D

dweekie wrote:One interesting post, although I don't know the accuracy of it, is a list of construction for a few caps.

VCap teflon -Teflon Film-Tin Foil
Relcap teflon - Teflon Film-Aluminum Foil
Sonicap Platinum - Teflon Film -Polypropylene "Hybrid"
SCR teflon - Solid Cast Teflon (no metal)


The RelCap/AudioCap TFT Exotica is Teflon film/tin foil, and so is Solen/SCR. Just yesterday, I spoke with the guy at Sonic Craft about the Sonicap Platinum, and he said it was a Teflon film cap very similar to the VH Audio V-Cap TFTF. I'm not saying it couldn't be a mixed dielectric design, it's just that he made no mention of polypropylene, and said it was very similar to the V-Cap.

Eddie :D


TFT - That makes a lot of sense. I wonder where that other person got his info from.

I found two posts that seemed to directly compare the performance of the Sonicap Platinums and the V-Caps.

"The SoniCap Platinum, in comparison to the V-Cap, is a bit more articulate but does not have the midrange magic of the V-Cap Teflon. Overall, I find the V-Cap a bit smoother in my applications. The upper end of the Platinum is very extended with a great sense of air. In coupling applications, I do find that the V-Cap provids a bit more body and weight in the lower end without sacrificing dynamic speed and authority. There are a few applications where I find the Platinum to be a better fit. For instance, I use the Platinum in power supply bypass applications as well as in the single ended input signal path of my Bella EXtreme 100 amplifiers. Sometimes a combination of the two provide me with the results I am looking for." - Bill Baker - Response Audio / Bella Extreme

"Change the output coupling caps to 3.3uFd V-cap oils bypassed with Sonicap Platinum .22 uFd or V-cap Teflon .22 uFd. Sonicaps are a bit more extended in the highs, so if you like it smooth, use V-Caps. - Steve N - Empirical Audio"


They both seem consistent in their opinions of the caps.
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Re: V-CAP mid range sound?

Postby proud_indian » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:31 am

Hi Eddie,
Doing fine. Just got over the break in V cap trauma :shock:
shreekant :)
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